JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

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Joe Malone
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Re: JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

Post by Joe Malone »

greenmanhumming wrote:great to see someone else building these, keep us posted on how it goes!

my caps for the crossovers arrived today so Joe - a few more questions:

* should i leave a passive zobel on the tweeter or is that not now needed with the active setup?
No
* any thoughts on tweeter protection with active? I thought i'd test with the passive xover still in place the first time....
Small fuse during testing can be a good idea and/or a 1000uF cap in series with the tweeter.
* what is the point of diminishing returns with adding extra power supply caps to the powerrails? I have an additional 4800uF on each rail plus whats on the 3 amp boards in each monoblock. Is there any point in adding more?
With 3 modules you have 12000uF per rail already which is heaps but if you have extra on there it does hurt anything and will help to keep the power rail impedance low.
* any suggestions about reducing transformer vibration? I have encapsulated toroidal power transformers and I can still hear the damn things vibrating away softly at 50hz plus harmonics - is there anything I can do other than buy better ones?
Usually toroids only make noise if run on higher mains voltage so the core saturates or have a shorted turn around them by the bolt in the middle joining back to the chassis which makes about 300mV at a few hundred amps.
well I've changed one channel to active
ok
it works, it sounds good, but i'm not yet sure if it actually sounds better than the passive version.

certainly it is different. very hard to describe the difference, other than the tweeter level. there's actually maybe subjectively a little less deep bass. but the mids are significantly different in a way i can't describe.
The passive woofer and box tuning may be out due to the series resistance of the passive crossover which is now missing. The bass will also be much tighter due to the direct damping from the amp to the woofer. Basically you can measure the resistance of the passive woofer xover and add that in series with the woofer usually 0.5 to 1ohm. Or the active bass boost can we made more but make sure you have the tweeter level correct first. Also the low mids will be different as you do not have the phase issues caused by the woofer / mid woofer arrangement. Really need a stereo pair of the active to get the 6dB low end summing and phase correct. Also it would be good to run rightmark RMAA over each speaker box (one passive and one active) with a small condenser about a meter out from the box to see how many dB the tweeter should come down etc.
the tweeter is too loud, i put a 2 ohm resistor in series with the tweeter to see, and that brings it about to where it should be. what increase in the 3.3k resistor would that translate into?
The 2ohms gives me no real help as we do not know the exact impedance of the tweeter in it operating range. Try running the woofer from a left source and the tweeter from the right source and pull down the tweeter level in your DAW until it seems right or RMAA shows a balance and give me the dB down figure and I can rework the 3.3k and cap.
Joe :-)
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greenmanhumming
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Re: JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

Post by greenmanhumming »

thanks again!

RMAA is windows only i think, I'm on OSX, i can boot into windows, but its a pain, and i don't know my way round or have anything configured right, so it might be a while.

know of a similar program for mac? I'll have a look, but let me know if there's one you recommend, I've got a freq analyser for my iphone, dunno if that would be accurate enough to help? at least then the mic is a known quantity tho poor quality.

by ear I think the tweeter needs to come down 2 or 3dB maybe 2 would get it where it was passively and 3 would get it where I think it sounds right, but I'm guessing, will try to work out a better test. can you tell me what the 3.3k should change to for 2 and 3 dB easily? then at least I'm in the ballpark.

I don't have any bolt issue wth the toroids, so i'm mystified there... they are not loud , just not silent either.

low mids are certainly different, subjectively more of them , which was probably needed.

greenmanhumming
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Re: JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

Post by greenmanhumming »

heres a quick and dirty comparison using the freq analyser on my iphone. I fed each speaker pink noise, and held the phone 1m in front level with the tweeter.

a crossover dip at 2k in the active version? i wouldnt believe the lack of signal below 125hz thats probably just the iphone...

active
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passive
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greenmanhumming
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Re: JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

Post by greenmanhumming »

here's the same thing a different way, this time I used SignalScope Pro for osx, and a naiant very small diaphragm omni condenser thru the BAN and fireface.

i put the mic only 75cm away because room asymmetry and clutter were likely to have an effect.

similar result

active
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passive
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Re: JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

Post by greenmanhumming »

BTW since converting to active I've got a low level buzzy hum - seems to be in all 3 drivers, tho most noticable in the tweeter.

the passive one is dead silent.

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Re: JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

Post by greenmanhumming »

when you modeled this I'm presuming you modeled it with two woofer amps fed in parallel from the same source?

I'm looking for causes of that notch at 2k and I wondered if the mid could be rolling off too low due to paralleling the filters at the inputs of the woofer amps? I assume the 1k resistors are there to prevent that tho?

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Re: JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

Post by Joe Malone »

greenmanhumming wrote:when you modeled this I'm presuming you modeled it with two woofer amps fed in parallel from the same source?
Yes
I'm looking for causes of that notch at 2k and I wondered if the mid could be rolling off too low due to paralleling the filters at the inputs of the woofer amps? I assume the 1k resistors are there to prevent that tho?
does the tweeter in the passive have it phase reversed? If so the active will need this or swap the tweeter balanced input over. Would be good to see the 2 active graphs with the tweeter normal and reversed to see the interaction difference. Have you removed the 2ohm resistor in series with the tweeter?
Joe :-)
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greenmanhumming
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Re: JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

Post by greenmanhumming »

the 2k notch is approx 3dB deeper with the phase reversed.
want the graph?

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Re: JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

Post by greenmanhumming »

inphase
Image

reversed
Image

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Re: JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

Post by greenmanhumming »

what do you think the notch at 400hz is?

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Re: JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

Post by Joe Malone »

greenmanhumming wrote:what do you think the notch at 400hz is?
400Hz will be room/mic distance related since it is the same in the passive and active.

Need a graph of the passive tweeter and active tweeter done as about 10cm. To see how different the tweeter is reacting to direct drive. Same could be useful for the woofer.

I suspect the tweeter 18dB / woofer/mid 12 dB phase mismatch helped the woofer/mid woofer tilt so it was flat on center axis. Now with the 2 mid/woofer 12 dB / Tweeter 12dB would maybe work best.

This is of course super simplified since I have no direct testing info for the drivers etc.

Also for the hum you mentioned. Check that none of the amps are running super hot as this will mean they are oscillating. Also the inductors in the xover may be picking up the power transformer etc.
Joe :-)
JLM Audio
Capturing Audio without Injury

greenmanhumming
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Re: JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

Post by greenmanhumming »

Joe Malone wrote: 400Hz will be room/mic distance related since it is the same in the passive and active.
that would explain why its less prominent on the iphone graph where the distance was probably different.
Joe Malone wrote: Need a graph of the passive tweeter and active tweeter done as about 10cm. To see how different the tweeter is reacting to direct drive. Same could be useful for the woofer.
ok will do and post soon
Joe Malone wrote: I suspect the tweeter 18dB / woofer/mid 12 dB phase mismatch helped the woofer/mid woofer tilt so it was flat on center axis. Now with the 2 mid/woofer 12 dB / Tweeter 12dB would maybe work best.
i thought that too, tho FWIW there was i think some upwards tilt in the passive version, they are floorstanding spkrs so maybe intentional.

Joe Malone wrote: Also for the hum you mentioned. Check that none of the amps are running super hot as this will mean they are oscillating. Also the inductors in the xover may be picking up the power transformer etc.
inductors are 6-8 inches from the transformers... will check heat

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Re: JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

Post by greenmanhumming »

activetweeter
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passivetweeter
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activewoofers
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passivewoofers
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Re: JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

Post by greenmanhumming »

oops the above was not done at 10cm, did it in a rush... it was the same 75cm as before
Last edited by greenmanhumming on Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: JLM 60Watt Power AMP Kit

Post by greenmanhumming »

tweeter active at 10cm
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tweeter passive at 10cm
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